In his latest role, as Arthur Fleck in the psychological comic book drama Joker, he transforms himself into a tortured and mentally unstable loner driven to highly inhumane acts of violence-against humans-in pursuit of a quixotic stand-up comedy career. Phoenix’s moral intensity and sense of comedy-that laugh-define his talent as an actor, along with a sense of vulnerability. Later, he tells me to “enjoy your swastika” before stepping out for a cigarette. “It’s up to you,” he says, and then bursts into maniacal laughter: “It’s so fucked up!” With an impish smile, he lets the comment hang.